Mrkim Report This Comment
Date: April 12, 2013 06:19AM

One from column A, one from column B and, oh yeah, gimme the net please

quasi Report This Comment
Date: April 12, 2013 10:11AM

I'm always confused when people say, "It was part of God's plan," especially when something awful happens. If there's a plan for everything why should we bother doing anything and, more to the point, what's the point of praying if everything is predetermined and there's no way to change the outcome?

jgoins Report This Comment
Date: April 12, 2013 12:09PM

God knows everything about everything past present and future even all thoughts in everyone and all choices we make. So therefore since he gives us free will any choice we make would essentially be his will. When bad things happen to some others will be stronger even those who have bad things to happen to them can become stronger or better. None of us will ever know his plan or even if he has a plan so stating it was his plan would be just something that churches have have engrained in us. I imagine churches use that as a way to get their followers to get past bad things that happen. My entire original family is dead and I am still alive, I have to believe there is a reason for that other than just dumb luck.

BlahX3 Report This Comment
Date: April 12, 2013 03:48PM

Thinking that God does not exist involves the same arrogance and ignorance as thinking that God does exist. There is no proof of anything concerning the existence or non-existence of God. Both are imagined conditions.

Mrkim Report This Comment
Date: April 12, 2013 04:24PM

Perhaps you could better explain how failing to put faith into an improvable construct of the existence of a god is arrogant or ignorant.

And, on the flip side, even as an atheist I don't see believers as arrogant or ignorant, just that we hold differing perspectives on the matter.

All this does raise the curious question blah, if acceptance or denial of belief in a higher deity shows arrogance and ignorance .... where exactly does that leave you in all this

BlahX3 Report This Comment
Date: April 12, 2013 05:07PM

The arrogance and ignorance of not believing in God is a human mind basing a decision upon unknowns, just the same as a human mind basing an opposite decision upon unknowns. We do not know the truth of the matter, there is no way for anyone to know the truth about it one way or the other. The decision to believe yes or no is based in ignorance. The thought that such a decision is correct despite the lack of proof is arrogance. What I mean is an attitude of I am right even though I cannot prove it is an arrogant attitude.

Where it leaves me in all this is a difficult question to answer, considering that I do not truly know. It isn't a yes or no question/answer to me. It is paradoxical. There is no definite answer. I have a mixture of thoughts concerning that and frankly can't decide. More importantly I don't think I can, should or should have to be forced to decide. It is not my pace to do so. Who am I to think that I could possibly do so?

Sure, I could decide for myself but it would still be an arrogant attitude based on ignorance.

Mrkim Report This Comment
Date: April 12, 2013 09:27PM

The arrogance and ignorance of not believing in God is a human mind basing a decision upon unknowns, just the same as a human mind basing an opposite decision upon unknowns. We do not know the truth of the matter, there is no way for anyone to know the truth about it one way or the other. The decision to believe yes or no is based in ignorance. The thought that such a decision is correct despite the lack of proof is arrogance. What I mean is an attitude of I am right even though I cannot prove it is an arrogant attitude.

Ok, I get the gist of your thoughts, though that doesn't exactly place me in agreement, nor is it required. As thinking humans that's one thing that separates us from the rest of the beasts.

Though belief in the improvable existence of a god requires faith, I'd hardly call that a decision based in ignorance, nor would I characterize such a belief as arrogance.

To believe as many atheists do that agreement with an improvable gods existence lacks proof and therefore, logical agreement with the idea on such grounds, seems at least more plausible as we are not claiming the presence of something that can't be proven, simply disbelief and therefore rejection of that which can not be proven.

To myself, and as always the only one I speak for, simple rejection of an improvable (and over(t)ly improbable) existence of a god is based upon lack of proof thereof coupled with the rejection of the required faith to believe in anything lacking verifiable proof of existence. If that seems to you as arrogant, or ignorant, I'd have to say we have differing points of view as to what would constitute such things.

As one who fails to have faith in an improvable ideology I'm not required to disprove the existense of anything that itself is improvable, as many theists/believers claim I must, to prove my own atheism as valid. Believers are the ones with such a burden, not we who reject such belief/faith in the improvable.

Where it leaves me in all this is a difficult question to answer, considering that I do not truly know. It isn't a yes or no question/answer to me. It is paradoxical. There is no definite answer. I have a mixture of thoughts concerning that and frankly can't decide. More importantly I don't think I can, should or should have to be forced to decide. It is not my pace to do so. Who am I to think that I could possibly do so?

This equates as one of the most namby-pamby statements I've ever read on this topic, and I can assure you, there have been quite a goody number committed to memory.

To say you have/hold either a belief or reject such a belief is a statement of position, based upon whatever premise one chooses to do so upon. Similarly, to state one holds a position of ambiguity is just the same as to saying one lacks the ability to choose one or the other, and in the same hand, the strength to state with conviction that they hold an opinion at all. The definition of agnostic applies to all such fence sitters, so I query is that then your position?

Sure, I could decide for myself but it would still be an arrogant attitude based on ignorance.

It seems as if you've boxed yourself into quite an illogical/paradoxical corner there dude as you claim you can't make a call, nor that even if you did so, any logical choice even could be made ..... interesting indeed, even if I choose to heartily disagree

jgoins Report This Comment
Date: April 13, 2013 11:41AM

What possible harm does it do for one to believe in God if he does not exist?

What harm does it do to not believe in God if he does exist?

fossil_digger Report This Comment
Date: April 13, 2013 01:41PM

it's called mind control

BlahX3 Report This Comment
Date: April 13, 2013 01:44PM

You asked a question of me and I answered it honestly. You didn't ask it to see what I thought anyway, you asked it to collect fuel for your bullshit fire of strawman arguments. You already judged me long ago. I am not required to play by YOUR rules Kim.

Mrkim Report This Comment
Date: April 13, 2013 01:48PM

The same argument could be made for unicorns JG, as both are illogical

blah, though it may seem you've answered, all you did was state a conundrum, talked all around an answer, then stated no answer was even possible, hence the conundrum.

The only rules are that if ya wanna play the game, step up to the plate and be ready to swing for the fences. Proceeding with anything short of that just exposes a lack of conviction, or a serious case of "empty shirt" syndrome







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 13/04/2013 03:45PM by Mrkim.

BlahX3 Report This Comment
Date: April 13, 2013 04:04PM

Stating the conundrum illustrates exactly why I don't decide what the logical truth is concerning the existence of God. I recognize that making such a decision one way or the other is invalid. It is factually impossible to say with certainty of proof that God either exists or does not.

Stating that God definitely does not exist is based on the same lack of information that stating the opposite is based on.

You stating "The only rules..." are still your rules. Don't make the mistake of equating this to lacking conviction. I am convinced about a great many things.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 13/04/2013 04:09PM by BlahX3.

jgoins Report This Comment
Date: April 14, 2013 11:25AM

Who is controlling my mind? Are churches controlling my mind? I don't believe in churches. Is God controlling my mind? Some say God doesn't exist so how can he be controlling my mind? So just where does the mind control come from?

BlahX3 Report This Comment
Date: April 15, 2013 12:13AM

Hopefully you are. As long as you are honest with yourself and do a healthy amount of questioning your own beliefs you probably are.

jgoins Report This Comment
Date: April 15, 2013 11:08AM

The only time mind control is involved is when you attend church. Belief in God is not mind control in itself it is just churches which control your minds.

BlahX3 Report This Comment
Date: April 15, 2013 05:41PM

Learn your own mind. It doesn't have to be anything to do with believing in God or not. It is your mind.

fossil_digger Report This Comment
Date: April 15, 2013 06:38PM

let's say that the church propaganda monster machine had never reached your ears....what would you believe in?

fossil_digger Report This Comment
Date: April 15, 2013 06:40PM

let's also consider that, let's say, the bible was presented as science fiction or fiction in general.....what would you believe?

BlahX3 Report This Comment
Date: April 16, 2013 12:20AM

How do YOU answer those Fossil?

fossil_digger Report This Comment
Date: April 16, 2013 02:28AM

i still say hogwash

jgoins Report This Comment
Date: April 16, 2013 11:24AM

I get your point FD on the first one, I already thought of that scenario but I still believe and always will as it does me no harm.

As for the second one, life on other planets is science fiction but I still believe there is life out there somewhere. If I didn't believe there was life other than our own and a space craft landed with extraterrestrials on board then my mind would snap. As I believe now I would accept it if it happened.

fossil_digger Report This Comment
Date: April 17, 2013 09:16PM

travelling into space used to be only science fiction also.

BlahX3 Report This Comment
Date: April 18, 2013 01:43AM

The world used to be flat too.

jgoins Report This Comment
Date: April 18, 2013 10:44AM

And the Sun used to revolve around the Earth too.

quasi Report This Comment
Date: April 18, 2013 10:50AM

But there ARE sea dragons out there, or at least river dragons - I've seen them, and sea cows too.