BlahX3 Report This Comment Date: July 19, 2012 09:41PM
I suppose a gun wouldn't hold enough slop to stick in his pie hole.
woberto Report This Comment Date: July 19, 2012 10:05PM
Wow, 6 years ago...
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 19/07/2012 10:07PM by woberto.
BlahX3 Report This Comment Date: July 19, 2012 10:31PM
Yep, those analogies fail but they are kinda funny. I was thinking about that
very 6 year old thing too.
jgoins Report This Comment Date: July 20, 2012 10:27AM
Those analogies don't fail. Guns do not commit crimes by themselves, they have
to have human hands attached to do anything. I have never seen a gun kill
someone by itself without some idiot interacting with it in some way. There
have never been any guns which load themselves either. Guns don't kill people
it's the idiots holding the guns who do. cars kill far more people so let's
outlaw cars.
BlahX3 Report This Comment Date: July 20, 2012 01:39PM
Of course guns don't kill by themselves but that is the intended purpose of a
gun.
jgoins Report This Comment Date: July 21, 2012 10:52AM
It doesn't matter what the intended purpose is. Do we not have a right to
protect ourselves? The police can't protect us in time so we need to do it
ourselves and a gun is the best way to do it. If guns were to magically
disappear then people would be carrying around swords again. The fact of the
matter is that the human race is inherently violent and some will always kill
others. Why take guns away from those who do not normally kill others and leave
them in the hands of those who do? The number of guns which have killed people
are far fewer than the number of guns which haven't killed anyone.
woberto Report This Comment Date: July 21, 2012 11:04AM
You Americans are pretty fucked up.
BlahX3 Report This Comment Date: July 21, 2012 12:26PM
Of course it matters what the intended purpose is. I don't give a shit if you
have guns or not and I stand by your right to have them, just don't be an idiot
about it with stupid comparisons. A gun is a gun, period. It's not like anything
else except another gun.
pulse Report This Comment Date: July 22, 2012 03:13AM
Of course guns don't kill people (by themselves), but they make it a hell of a
lot easier if that's your intention.
Put it this way, it would be a hell of a lot harder to kill 12 and wound 58 even
in a crowded cinema with a knife, or a sword, or a tomahawk, or even a car or
a... Sure, a few people would've got injured, or maybe even a couple killed,
however there's a hell of a lot more chance people could fight back to protect
themselves in such a situation.
Your contention that if guns were taken away, everybody would be carrying swords
is quite ridiculous. The vast majority of the 'western' world doesn't permit
guns. Murder rates are way lower in those countries than in the US and nobody
carries swords. Fact.
What are you so afraid of that you have to defend yourself from? England isn't
coming. Who the fuck needs automatic weapons to "defend themselves"
anyway?
quasi Report This Comment Date: July 22, 2012 04:21AM
Who needs guns when you can make bombs right in your kitchen?
The gun genie was let out of the bottle a long time ago and he isn't going back
in no matter how hard you try. As long as the crazies and crooks have access to
them, and they will be the ones who find a way to get them even if they are
outlawed just like anything else that's outlawed, the only really rational thing
to do is to protect yourself. Just one sane, armed person in that theater may
not have taken the guy out with all of his body armor but he could have been
slowed down enough that more people may have escaped. Nobody wants a shooting
gallery (except of course the afformentioned crazies and crooks)but bringing a
box of popcorn to a gunfight definitely doesn't work out so well.
pulse Report This Comment Date: July 22, 2012 04:29AM
Yeah I realise that it's too hard to go back now. Honestly though even if the
patrons had guns they'd be next to useless as he fired tear gas into the cinema
first. If you were in there and had a gun, how do you shoot when you can't see?
Or are you blasting away at random causing as much death and panic as the
psycho?
However, if he couldn't get guns in the first place then the whole event likely
either wouldn't have happened or at least not to the same degree.
woberto Report This Comment Date: July 22, 2012 04:41AM
We get it quasi.
But why would an intelligent able bodied person bother living in the USA?
There are dozens of better countries to live in.
Or you could try to make the USA better but you guys have just given up, and
it's pretty sad.
Some of our countries aren't far behind but we still try to NOT be like the
USA.
If every second person had a gun on thier belt it WOULD be a safer place.
But who the fuck is that stoopid they want to live like that?
There is no hope for you guys.
Pretty soon Mexico & Canada will build walls to keep you guys OUT.
Sadly, you're all such xenophobes that you think that would be OK.
To put this in perspective, I've never met the stereotypical American. Everyone
I have met has been intelligent, educated and compassionate. But they are
patriotic and put too much faith in a seriously broken Government.
/rant
Dingo Report This Comment Date: July 22, 2012 06:22AM
Guns don't kill people. It's those darned bullets.
jgoins Report This Comment Date: July 22, 2012 11:31AM
It is not too difficult to function in a room with tear gas, I have done it
during training in the Navy. If one remains calm and doesn't rub their eyes
they can see good enough to shoot back. Ducking behind the seats you could
remain hidden and as the shooter approached closer you could get off a clean
shot or two at the gas mask he was wearing and it wouldn't matter what body
armor he was wearing. Panic is what killed most people by causing them to bunch
together at the exits. There would have been time for someone carrying
concealed to return fire before the gas canister permeated the room.
It doesn't matter what the gun laws are criminals will still be able to get
them. The only people that gun laws apply to are law abiding citizens, not
criminals. I think gun education is more important than gun laws. In areas
with strict gun laws death from bladed weapons rises higher.
Even without the guns the death toll would have been very high in the movie
theater if he just threw the gas canister and yelled fire but because he used
guns then emphasis is placed on the guns only.
Guns are no more responsible for crime than McDonalds is for obesity, it is the
people eat the food who is responsible for obesity. It is the people who use
the guns who are responsible for the crime.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 22/07/2012 11:35AM by jgoins.
quasi Report This Comment Date: July 22, 2012 01:13PM
Yeah, I think I'll move to Norway, a peaceful country with much more strict gun
laws and where everybody loves to have folks from other nations come in and make
themselves at home.
[
en.wikipedia.org]
BlahX3 Report This Comment Date: July 22, 2012 09:31PM
Basic training tear gas is nothing worth bragging about JG. It's a small
fraction of normal strength gas.
pro_junior Report This Comment Date: July 23, 2012 02:35AM
really? it seemed pretty strong to me...
BlahX3 Report This Comment Date: July 23, 2012 02:41AM
Oh it had an effect for sure but I distinctly recall the instructor say it was
a very low amount compared to what would come out of a full canister. Something
like 1/4 the amount. It was a small tablet they put on a hot plate that turned
into the gas which did really fill that small chamber quickly and the guy of
course laughed at us all choking and shit when we had to take off the gas masks
and kept repeating it was a very small dose. Full blast I am sure that shit is
most brutal but that wasn't what they dosed us with in 72 at San Diego.
jgoins Report This Comment Date: July 23, 2012 11:01AM
In our training there was no tablet. It was a tear gas canister, pulled the
pin and dropped in a wire cage in the center of the room. There was no mention
of partial strength and this was back in 1970 probably before they reduced the
strength. The instructors removed their masks along with us and said they will
see who stays the longest. I walked out calmly after the last person, and
instructor, left. Tear gas can be handled if done so in a calm manner, it is
not a pleasant experience but it can be handled.
I am surprised there were no other guns in the theater since Colorado is and
open carry state.
BlahX3 Report This Comment Date: July 23, 2012 06:09PM
Regardless of how it was administered, the gas used in that training is NOT the
same as what gets encountered in the real world and even if it was it is a
completely ridiculous expectation that civilians would be able to handle it
calmly anyway.
jgoins Report This Comment Date: July 24, 2012 11:11AM
Civilians can handle anything calmly, it is all a state of mind. Panic is
closely related to a fear of death and when one is afraid to die then they will
panic in dangerous situations thereby likely bringing about that which they are
trying to avoid.
BlahX3 Report This Comment Date: July 24, 2012 12:11PM
It is unreasonable to expect the average person to not fear death.
quasi Report This Comment Date: July 24, 2012 03:58PM
In such a situation, when the fight or flight instincts kick in, and with no
reasonable ability to fight, most folks will flee while some will freeze and
become a perfect target. Panic is instinctual and we're closer to the herd
animals that most folks want to believe.
BlahX3 Report This Comment Date: July 25, 2012 03:18AM
Civilization, what a concept.
quasi Report This Comment Date: July 25, 2012 09:27AM
It's a jungle out there.
jgoins Report This Comment Date: July 25, 2012 11:14AM
The fear of death can be overcome if one desires to as can the fight or flight
response. The information to overcome all these is everywhere all one has to do
is desire to change how they repond to situations. One way to correct your
responce is to always be aware of your surroundings anywhere you go. One way to
not be afraid of death is to become comfortable with where you are going after
you die and always keeping your affairs in order and knowing your loved ones
will be taken care of when you go. Not being afraid of death does not mean you
will go without a fight it simply means that should you lose you don't go crying
and screaming.
BlahX3 Report This Comment Date: July 25, 2012 02:10PM
I agree that it is possible but I don't believe everyone is capable of doing
that.
jgoins Report This Comment Date: July 27, 2012 10:47AM
Everyone is capable, they just don't want to.
BlahX3 Report This Comment Date: July 27, 2012 06:32PM
Oh come on, I can't believe you are actually that stupid to really believe
that.
pulse Report This Comment Date: August 01, 2012 06:45AM
An article published today by our ex-Prime Minister
[
www.theage.com.au]
Particularly interesting are some of the stats toward the end which run against
what a lot of pro-gun Americans believe.
Oh and also just as an addition, I don't care what side of the story you sit on,
the image is rubbish with regards to guns kill people / spoons made me fat.
Spoons are designed for eating, guns are designed for killing. In the wrong
hands, guns are a tool for killing (fact). Nobody ever made somebody ELSE fat
with their spoon, but there's been plenty of people who have killed others with
their gun. One you inflict upon yourself, the other you can inflict upon
others.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/08/2012 06:49AM by pulse.
jgoins Report This Comment Date: August 01, 2012 11:29AM
Guns are merely tools and tools can only be made deadly by the person who uses
them. Even hammers have been used to murder people there have been no calls to
ban hammers. Guns would not be an issue if we were able to remove the desire
from everyone to kill others. It is easier to blame the tool than to work
towards what it is that makes people want to destroy other people. Many of us
have lawfully killed others and most of us do not want to have to do it again
but we do desire to protect the ones we love by any means necessary. Maybe you
should ban all the video games, music and movies which anesthetize us to death
and killing. You wouldn't get much support for that but with political
correctness running amok you would get support against guns.
jgoins Report This Comment Date: August 01, 2012 11:31AM
Also
another spot
pulse Report This Comment Date: August 01, 2012 12:48PM
It's fucking hard to walk into a cinema and kill 12 people with a hammer. It's
the efficiency of the tool at doing its job.
As stated in that article:
These national gun laws have proven beneficial. Research published in 2010 in
the American Journal of Law and Economics found that firearm homicides, in
Australia, dropped 59 per cent between 1995 and 2006.
There was no offsetting
increase in non-firearm-related murders. Researchers at Harvard University
in 2011 revealed that in the 18 years prior to the 1996 Australian laws, there
were 13 gun massacres (four or more fatalities) in Australia, resulting in 102
deaths.
There have been none in that category since the Port Arthur
laws.
So why would I need a gun? Maybe the problem isn't the guns, maybe it's the
people. Maybe the rest of the westernised world isn't as fixated on killing each
other? Our crime rates are lower than the US, yet we have no guns to protect
ourselves from criminals. Some of our criminals do. But it's rare because
they're not easily available. The chances of me being attacked are very slim,
and I'm not scared to leave my home at night. And yes, I've been mugged, in the
UK (and if I had a gun I still wouldn't have pulled it as I was significantly
outnumbered at the time).
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/08/2012 12:52PM by pulse.
quasi Report This Comment Date: August 01, 2012 01:23PM
I think the course for this was set in the U.S. in the 1920s during alcohol
prohibition. The gangs who controlled the illegal alcohol and even the mom &
pop moonshiners began fighting each other and the law with guns and the affinity
for guns continued after the end of prohibition. Today the majority of gun
violence has to do with the illegal drug trade and at this point, just as
prohibition of alcohol and drugs led to increased violence I tend to believe
that prohibition of guns will spur more violence. I also pity any populace that
has been disarmed by it's government when that government turns against it,
something our founding fathers had in mind when crafting our constitution and
which has been shown to happen in other nations since. Our national psyche, at
least of the decent honest folks, is not so much one of violence but one of
meeting violence with like force, ie "fuck with me and you're apt to be
sorry you did". I've also seen numbers that say the majority of all gun
deaths in the U.S. are due to suicide, and in that case at least I'm sure other
methods will be found and suicide levels will not decrease.
BlahX3 Report This Comment Date: August 01, 2012 04:30PM
The issue of the public having the right to have firearms predates the history
of the US as a country, as much as we'd like to take credit for it and are
seemingly so proud of it, we inherited the concept from England which was
codified into law in the 1600s.
That is not meant to detract for what you said though Q and I believe you have a
valid point. Gun violence in the US also got a jump during union riots.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/08/2012 04:46PM by BlahX3.
GAK67 Report This Comment Date: August 01, 2012 06:42PM
I am getting so sick of hearing this argument: "Even hammers have been
used to murder people there have been no calls to ban hammers". That's
because hammers were designed to hit nails and have a useful and practical other
purpose. Guns on the other hand are designed to shoot bullets and fast moving
bullets are designed to kill things.
And as pulse said, it would be hard to kill 12 people in a cinema with a
hammer.
NZ has always had tight gun control, and as pulse said Australia now is, crime
is lower than the US and we don't have guns to defend ourselves.
That said, it is easier to police the movements of guns into a country when that
country is an island with strict border controls at both air and sea ports. It
is different for a country like the US, but that just makes it harder, not
impossible.
As for it being England's fault, the law can be changed, and has been in
England.
quasi Report This Comment Date: August 01, 2012 08:23PM
Are you trying to stir up the border issue now, GAK?
Actually I noticed something interesting when I looked at the tables here [
en.wikipedia.org]
True, as compared to New Zealand, Australia, Great Britain and may other
countries, the U.S. has a very high murder rate but we're still in the middle of
the pack and perhaps not farther down the list due in part to the fact that many
of the illegals (and legals) that come across our border with Mexico come from
nations with the highest murder rates. I wonder if there is a correlation
there.
Se what you started?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/08/2012 08:23PM by quasi.
GAK67 Report This Comment Date: August 01, 2012 08:59PM
It is not unreasonable to assume that people bring part of their culture with
them, whether that be good or bad, when they move to another country, so yes
there could be a correlation.
But, no, I was not trying to stir up an immigration issue. By border controls I
was meaning customs inspections, not immigration. Maybe you're the one wanting
to raise the issue?
fossil_digger Report This Comment Date: August 01, 2012 09:37PM
until it's not a Constitutional right, all arguments are moot. maybe after 20
or more years after it being repealed (as if that will ever happen) there may be
some stats worth discussing. until then you are pissin' in the wind.
GAK67 Report This Comment Date: August 01, 2012 10:17PM
The thing about your constitutional right is that it doesn't specify what arms
can or cannot be kept and borne. It also doesn't specify what regulations can or
cannot be implemented around that right. That means there is a large scope for
gun control laws and regulations that would still be constitutional.
fossil_digger Report This Comment Date: August 01, 2012 10:23PM
no, it means there are no restrictions that can be implemented.
GAK67 Report This Comment Date: August 01, 2012 10:43PM
So the states that do have some gun control laws are being un-constitutional? I
don't think so. If they were there would be litigation brought against them
immediately.
fossil_digger Report This Comment Date: August 01, 2012 10:52PM
it's called states rights. why do we have to explain this to you every time the
comes up?
pulse Report This Comment Date: August 01, 2012 11:42PM
Just because you have a right to "arms" doesn't mean you have a right
to ANY arms.. so why not practise some form of restrictions?
Why not start by restricting fully automatic weapons? That'd be a start. There
really is no useful purpose of a machine gun. They're not useful hunting tools.
Then you could look towards semi-automatic. It's still a lot harder to do mass
killings with a revolver than an M16. You don't have unrestricted rights to
arms. Are you allowed to walk down the street carrying an RPG? You're not
allowed to go and purchase any nuclear or chemical weapons..
You already have restrictions on your armaments, yet are happy that your
constitutional rights aren't being violated. Therefore, why not look at some
restriction? After all, if the idea is that criminals wouldn't dare attack you
because you might have a gun (which really is one of the main responses I see on
this subject), then a revolver is still a significant deterrant - and they
already know that you're not likely to be carrying an Uzi.
And yes, you're right - suicide numbers aren't likely to change significantly if
guns were banned, but murder rates are. So are accidental gun injury rates,
which are huge in the US. Whether they lead to death or not, they still cause
significant pain and damage (not to mention expense).
The other thing with a murder, and maybe this is just my view. It feels easier,
to me, to shoot somebody from a distance and be disconnected from the event than
it would be for me to walk up to somebody and beat them to death with a hammer
or stab them to death. It's also physically harder to do those things. They're
just such violent events.
GAK67 Report This Comment Date: August 01, 2012 11:46PM
Since when do states rights out-weigh the constitution?
fossil_digger Report This Comment Date: August 01, 2012 11:47PM
like i said, until they change it, that's all i have to say.
GAK67 Report This Comment Date: August 02, 2012 12:52AM
You remind me of an ostrich with it's head in the sand (and yes I know
ostrich's don't really do that, but it's a good analogy).
fossil_digger Report This Comment Date: August 02, 2012 01:12AM
was that supposed to be an insult?
GAK67 Report This Comment Date: August 02, 2012 01:57AM
Nope - it was supposed to be an analogy, which is why I called it an analogy.
fossil_digger Report This Comment Date: August 02, 2012 02:13AM
i'm still laughing at that feeble attempt.
woberto Report This Comment Date: August 02, 2012 02:15AM
Gak, you need to do some research on Texas and it's inhabitants.
They are very special, not for the obvious reasons though...
jgoins Report This Comment Date: August 02, 2012 10:49AM
We already have sufficient gun control laws. We are not allowed to own
automatic weapons without a permit so no machine guns. People are not trying to
control access to guns by criminals they are trying to remove all guns from law
abiding citizens. In the country it will always be easy for criminals to obtain
guns even if they are taken away from law abiding citizens. while it is true
that guns are designed to kill things but using them to kill people is
determined by the people who use them.
One of the first things an invading army does when they invade a country is to
find all citizens who own guns and disarm them or kill them. Ever wonder why
they do this? Ever wonder why we have never had a dictator in this country,
even though a lot of you thought Bush would remain in office after his term was
over?
woberto Report This Comment Date: August 02, 2012 11:31AM
More cops [
www.odmp.org] died in vehicle accidents so far this year.
BlahX3 Report This Comment Date: August 02, 2012 01:57PM
You need to educate yourself JG. The Federal Assault Weapons Ban expired on
September 13, 2004 and has since failed to be renewed. You are also wrong about
"People are not trying to control access to guns by criminals they are
trying to remove all guns from law abiding citizens." The entire focus of
gun control laws in the US is to deter criminals from having them while
preserving the rights of citizens to bear arms. Almost all of the arguments and
ridiculous comparisons that gun enthusiasts propose are full of crap and it
doesn't take a whole lot of brain power to determine that.
As I have stated numerous times I am NOT opposed to the right of US citizens to
own firearms but you guys would do much better if your arguments actually made
any real sense. If you want to win a debate and accomplish something useful
about the issue then use truth and logic, not the same loads of retarded crap
over and over again. And stay informed, educate yourselves.
fossil_digger Report This Comment Date: August 02, 2012 03:01PM
you guys? i thought you were talking to JG.
BlahX3 Report This Comment Date: August 02, 2012 03:37PM
Oh, now all of a sudden Skidly starts using logic for a change. I knew you had
it in you.
There are a handful of "you guys"
here who seem to say the same sort of uninformed BS, hence my use of the words.
fossil_digger Report This Comment Date: August 02, 2012 03:41PM
all of a sudden? when have i not used complete logic. (don't you love the yak
attack?)
BlahX3 Report This Comment Date: August 02, 2012 05:00PM
Constantly. You couldn't follow a logical train of thought if you were shackled
and chained to the caboose.
fossil_digger Report This Comment Date: August 02, 2012 05:03PM
so no examples? why does this not surprise me.
BlahX3 Report This Comment Date: August 02, 2012 06:10PM
"all of a sudden? when have i not used complete logic. (don't you love the
yak attack?)"
fossil_digger Report This Comment Date: August 02, 2012 06:42PM
what's wrong with that? you use the yak attack all the time, but it can't?
GAK67 Report This Comment Date: August 02, 2012 09:51PM
"Ever wonder why we have never had a dictator in this country" -
there are lots of countries that have either tighter gun control laws than the
US or looser gun control laws than the US that have never had a dictator either,
so your argument that the guns in the hands of your citizens has prevented the
rise of a dictator is invalid.
Blah - don't feed the troll. Just ignore him when he spirals the discussion to
his own delusions of logic.
fossil_digger Report This Comment Date: August 02, 2012 10:40PM
calling someone a troll is an admission of defeat.
jgoins Report This Comment Date: August 03, 2012 11:10AM
Here in the US we are not permitted to own a fully automatic weapon without a
permit and those were not included in the assault weapons ban anyway.
Just what laws prevent criminals from getting guns? They are criminals because
they do not obey the laws and laws only affect the rest of us. You want to
reduce murders bring back public executions and none of these lethal injections
use hangings or firing squads or hand them over to the Comanches for
skinning.
People are more easily controlled when you remove their weapons.
BlahX3 Report This Comment Date: August 03, 2012 11:33AM
I have no idea what you mean by the "yak attack" if such a think even
exists for anyone else.
In your previous statement JG you did not specify between fully-automatic and
semi-automatic.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2012 12:16PM by BlahX3.
fossil_digger Report This Comment Date: August 03, 2012 12:55PM
the Constitution doesn't specify either.
BlahX3 Report This Comment Date: August 03, 2012 01:52PM
That's true but the constitution is not all of the laws. Are all of the laws
constitutional? I do not know. We supposedly vote for people to hire people to
make those decisions for us. That's US Government.
jgoins Report This Comment Date: August 04, 2012 10:02AM
If you don't like what your elected officials are doing then get of your lazy
ass and vote them out in the next election and keep doing that until they learn
to listen to the people.
fossil_digger Report This Comment Date: December 01, 2016 09:36PM
i still have guns, and none of them have whacked any fools..
good gun, good gun
