quasi Report This Comment Date: March 31, 2011 02:43AM
So if I send money to the preacher on TV I'll get a ride in a spaceship? Does
it have a holodeck?
fossil_digger Report This Comment Date: March 31, 2011 05:10AM
...all i had to do was send ten dollars to
the church of the sacred bleeding hearted jesus located somewhere in Los Angeles
california...............
Mrkim Report This Comment Date: March 31, 2011 05:30PM
I'd come nearer to believin the alien segment above as plausible.
I've been goin at it hammer and tong with theists for the past 2 days on another
forum and here's some of their best:
"All things are possible to God. Even
atheists."
"Read the Bible and try to disprove anything in it. I mean REALLY disprove
it by history or science or whatever, you can't do it because it is the
truth."
"It’s interesting and informative to read the anti-religion comments.
Proves the Bible is correct. You can’t think your way in, and there are
goats." followed by -> "No one can think their way in (i.e. by
their intellectual ability), because, “it is by grace you are saved and that
not of yourselves, it is the gift of God”."
"I am a believer and a Christian.If I am wrong then I and the unbeliever
are both OK.On the other hand if I am right and the unbeliever is wrong, then
the unbeliever has a really bit problem.Since it costs me nothing to be a
believer and gives me a lot of satisfaction to live the best life I can,I prefer
to take that course."
"For those pointing to belief in a Creator as irrational/superstitious, I
would point out as the greatest evidence, you yourself. The fact that you are
conscious and can reason testifies to Divine intervention."
"it helps if you can manage to look down your nose at people who believe in
things they can't reproduce in a laboratory - like EVERYTHING that must be true
if atheism is true. Double bonus points if you can rationalize away the irony of
that."
And lastly: "Life is full or choices. Eternal Life has two. Heaven or
Hell!!"
For myself, until any religion can lay claim to 100% verifiable proof to support
it by any means besides personal faith alone, I'll never be swayed to believe in
any of it
woberto Report This Comment Date: March 31, 2011 08:30PM
Hell is never mentioned in the bible.
GAK67 Report This Comment Date: March 31, 2011 11:21PM
Um, yes it is 'berto - it may not use the term "hell" but it's in
there.
Matthew 25:41-43 - Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you
who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For
I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me
nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed
clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look
after me.’
Revelation 20:10 - And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of
burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will
be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:15 - Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life
was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 - But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers,
the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all
liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the
second death.
I'll let you decide for yourself whether to believe it or not, but your facts
were wrong 'berto.
BlahX3 Report This Comment Date: April 01, 2011 12:30AM
The Bible relies solely on self-reference for justification. In faith based
religion it's apparently supposed to be that way.
pro_junior Report This Comment Date: April 01, 2011 04:05AM
proverbs 5:19 - Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts
satisfy you at all times; and be you ravished always with her love.
only sheep need a shepherd...
woberto Report This Comment Date: April 01, 2011 08:21AM
I repeat, Hell is never mentioned in the Bible.
GAK67 Report This Comment Date: April 01, 2011 09:23AM
That's like saying poultry is not sold at KFC, 'berto.
pro_junior Report This Comment Date: April 01, 2011 11:30AM
Matthew 10:28 (New King James Version)
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather
fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
woberto Report This Comment Date: April 01, 2011 12:13PM
Pfft, new King James was written in 1982. That translation doesn't appear in
the 1611 text.
Mrkim Report This Comment Date: April 01, 2011 02:22PM
"And do not fear those who kill the body" <- Holy Bathwater
Batman, there's some sage advice
GAK67 Report This Comment Date: April 01, 2011 04:21PM
'berto - if you're going to be that much of a pedant then you're not going back
far enough. You need to go back the the original Hebrew and Greek writings, so
if you do that, other words will also not be mentioned simply because they are
English translations.
I guess what I'm saying is stop being such a contrary imbecile and at least try
to respond intelligently.
Wolfgang613 Report This Comment Date: April 01, 2011 04:32PM
Here are several verses from the New International Version (2011) of the Bible
which mention hell:
Matthew 5:22
Matthew 5:29
Matthew 5:30
Matthew 10:28
Matthew 18:9
Matthew 23:15
Matthew 23:33
Mark 9:43
Mark 9:45
Mark 9:47
Luke 12:5
James 3:6
2 Peter 2:4
There are more.
More importantly there are at least 622 Bible verses with heaven it them.
Look for evil you will find evil.
Look for good and you will find good.
Look for nothing and you will find nothing.
Mrkim Report This Comment Date: April 01, 2011 05:39PM
Great wolfie, but when you seek proof of religion, where do you go for that
BTW, "in the bible" or "in your heart" won't cut it so
please try to refrain from these or other illogical/implausible sources
GAK67 Report This Comment Date: April 01, 2011 05:51PM
I'm confused Mrkim - you need more proof of religion than the churches,
mosques, synagogues etc that you see around? How about the bible - ever seen one
of them? That's like years ago when I heard an old guy say "I don't believe
in woman doctors." Just as woman doctors existed, so do religions. Many
wars have been fought over them. Do not confuse religion with a deity, or even a
belief in a deity. Religion is not faith.
Mrkim Report This Comment Date: April 01, 2011 06:06PM
Points well taken GAK, let me be a bit more specific. I seek verifiable proof
of the basis of any religion, i.e. proof of god. I'm not too picky, any ole god
will do
BTW, I must disagree with your last statement. From the best I've yet to
uncover on the subject faith is the basis of all religious belief
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2011 06:09PM by Mrkim.
pro_junior Report This Comment Date: April 01, 2011 06:46PM
whoops link I posted was meant to be this page,
King James Version... omg it says
hell!
quasi Report This Comment Date: April 01, 2011 07:47PM
I think it's quite possible there is intelligent design behind the natural
world and I like the story and lessons of Jesus so I suppose I'm a Christian of
a sort but to believe the Bible is the official word of God and not just a
collection of writings by people is a form of blindness. Some of the stories may
be true, I think there's some historical corroberation to some of the people in
them, but there's just no real proof and no reason to claim any religion is any
truer than any other. What matters is that we act in moral ways. I'd a lot
sooner trust MrKim than many of the "chritians" I know.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2011 07:49PM by quasi.
fossil_digger Report This Comment Date: April 01, 2011 07:57PM
it's safe to say that nobody knows the true deal, so why would you make
yourself look like a fool claiming that you
DO know? much less, look down
on someone who doesn't follow blindly
BlahX3 Report This Comment Date: April 01, 2011 08:14PM
Some people don't care if they appear foolish or even actually are fools. It's
also foolish to try to reason with fools. As a point of minor interest though,
some surveys indicate that majority of those who consider themselves to be
Christian do not believe blindly that the bible is the infallible Word of God.
Mrkim Report This Comment Date: April 01, 2011 08:23PM
I've often wondered if the higher ups in many religions themselves are actually
non-believers. Afterall, with a gig like theirs what difference does it make if
they're knowingly pedaling snake-oil or not, the take still remains constant and
the vig's pretty juicy too
BTW, thanks for the huge vote of confidence quasi! Comin from one as yourself I
take that as a huge compliment ..... and The Anti-Church of Mrkim is graciously
accepting any and all donations at this time, so .....
GAK67 Report This Comment Date: April 01, 2011 08:48PM
When I said that "Religion is not faith" Mrkim, I was alluding to the
fact that you don't have to be religious to have faith (take quasi's example
from above - a belief in some sort of intelligent creator, but definitely not
religious). Likewise, although most religious people do, you don't have to have
a faith to be religious (as you pointed out yourself, you doubt the faith of
some of those higher up in religious organisations).
woberto Report This Comment Date: April 01, 2011 09:28PM
Of the several times the King James attributes the word "hell" to
Jesus, 11 times it is translated from Gehenna, and 4 times it is translated from
Hades.
Greek Gehenna-from the Hebrew Ge [Be] Hinnom,meaning "valley of [the son
of] Hinnom". A valley located east of Jerusalem known as Hinnom Valley.
Greek Hades- from the Hebrew Sheol,meaning "the unseen,
imperceptible", and denotes the place or state of the dead. Hades/Sheol are
also translated as "grave"* many times in the Bible.
*How can the same word mean 'grave' and 'hell'?
Heaven and Hell are relatively modern concepts from around 1000 years.
Wolfgang613 Report This Comment Date: April 02, 2011 12:55AM
I do not use the King James Version of the Bible much because it is the most
inaccurate translation. It was written to be easy to read and poetic. Woberto,
the use of hell in the passages I listed refers to the place of the damned not
just the dead. Don't mix Greek mythology and Christianity it doesn't work.
As far as the Bible being the word of God, it is. There are other holy writings
out there that did not make it into the Bible for many different reasons.
Another thing, there are differences in the Bible between the different main
stream religions. Some add or remove different books and passages. Are they
wrong? I don't know. I just know the main theme of the Bible is Gods love for
our failing race and the forgiveness he offers us thought the life, death, and
resurrection of Jesus Christ our Lord and Savor.
As for MrKim, be warned he is out for an augment not the truth. I have in he
past tried to show him the truth, but he is not interested in it. All he wants
to do is fight. I am not interested in fighting with him.
Seek good and you will find good.
Seek evil and you will find evil.
Seek nothing and you will find nothing.
quasi Report This Comment Date: April 02, 2011 01:14AM
The Bible was written by men and compiled by a group of men who were all
inspired by their faith, but God did not put pen to paper. It is tainted by
men's idea of what God's word would be.
Wolfgang613 Report This Comment Date: April 02, 2011 06:02AM
quasi, if the Bible was written by men and compiled by a group of men who were
all inspired by
God thought their faith, how is it tainted? God did not
put pen to paper. He wrote in men's harts what need to be put on paper.
quasi Report This Comment Date: April 02, 2011 10:54AM
People can't help but editorialise and put their own spin on things, it's human
nature. It was THEIR faith which moved them, not a possesion by a spirit or the
voice of God whispering in their ear (things which today are considered mental
illness), and coming from men and a committee of men it can't help but be
tainted by the imperfect hand of man. That would be the best that could be said
about the authors' motivations; the worst, and certainly likely in some cases,
is that they wrote and/or compiled the text to maintain positions of power over
superstitious people with no divine instruction at all. If God exists, and I
think he probably does, He gave me my intellect to look for logical proof of His
works rather than believe in the constructs of men who can only say, "Well
it just is." We weren't given our intelligence to then just cast it aside
for blind faith, we were created with questioning minds to seek out truths which
can be backed up by hard evidence. This world is a much worse place from people
who have deluded themselves into believing they're God's agents or twisting
"the word of God" to their own ends instead of just trying to get
along with their fellow man. Yeah, yeah, I know it's not about this world and
our troubles, but that's what we're stuck with until we get to see what happens
after this life.
fossil_digger Report This Comment Date: April 02, 2011 12:30PM
believers are funny, you give them an unanswerable question, and they spit out
an answer as fast as they can think of one.
pro_junior Report This Comment Date: April 02, 2011 02:22PM
Ellen G. White
quasi Report This Comment Date: April 02, 2011 03:27PM
To me, the greatest evidence that there is a higher power that created all this
is the fact that I have the wits to be able to look for evidence and not blindly
follow the way a dog follows it's master. Human intelligence, as flawed as it
is, just seems so far and above the rest of everything else on this earth that I
find it hard to believe that it happened without at least a little help from
above. I also find it very unlikely that we are unique in the universe - the
earth is not the center of everything as Bible scholars once believed and
insisted others believe under threat of death.
Mrkim Report This Comment Date: April 02, 2011 04:06PM
GAK, we can play and twist the semantics of wordings all day long while totally
avoiding the reality which remains starkly that since no proof of the existence
of any god can be provided, all religious belief and worship is 100% faith
based.
I personally take no issue with anyones faith and see their right to worship and
practice any religion in anyway they so choose to be an absolute right so long
as these actions in no way harm others.
What I take HUGE issue with is believers who point to their favorite religious
construct as "the truth" when in truth, no proof outside of personal
faith can be put forth to prove the reasonability of such a claim. Secondly I
take exceptional issue with believers claiming some moral high ground which
again they grant themselves through the tenets of their again "faith
based" proclamations, and again, without any basis for such a belief being
founded upon fact, but instead by purely high minded fiction designed by men,
not god.
In my many debates over the years on the topic several common threads fall into
place in each of them: 1. Because I'm an atheist, I can not be a moral human as
I can hold no basis for morality without a belief in some form of theology 2.
I, as the unbeliever, am the one who will suffer for my lack of faith while
believers will live on for eternity simply because they believe 3. Creative
design can be the only reasonable/plausible answer in how the world around us
occurs ... and 4. Since science has yet to have proven or disproven god, it is
flawed at its core and should be derided as invalid in any argument regarding
religion.
My query is, and yes Wolfie, it is a valid question, whether you choose to view
it such or not, and no, the only "proof" you've ever offered
previously are the same subjective faith based protestations all believers
proudly point to as "THE TRUTH" , never mind the real facts which are
it's all based on improvable constructs, which to a rational mind could never
elevate such claims to a level of what could be reasonably viewed as truth,
since truth is something that's verifiable, not subjective ....
If I were created by an omniscient, all loving and all powerful god who knew my
every thought and action before I was even born, while also being endowed by
this same creator with the capacity to question all things, including this very
same gods existence, which religious texts all say I must not do (a separate and
similarly fascinating dichotomy all in itself BTW), without ever offering any
truly verifiable proof of his/her existence, then told I must worship this god,
rejecting all other claims of god as valid, and that if I fail to worship and
follow a life path portrayed by this improvable god as "the way" I'll
then be damned for eternity to live out that perpetuity in pain and agony, it
totally evades me in how exactly this sounds like actions and demands placed
upon his "creations" by an omniscient and all loving god?
If I am indeed the progeny of a god who knows the days and the number of my days
before I was ever born, knowing just as well that I would also come to question
his existence, which would then lead to an eternity in hell from such doubt,
what then would have been the point of my creation and existence? Would I not,
under such pretexts, obviously have been created, lived my life and then have
been doomed to this horrendous eternity before I was ever born? Again, what
would have been the point of my existence if not some horrid joke perpetrated by
such a god with an assured tortuous outcome before my life ever even began? If
so that sure calls into question the all loving part about such a god!
Having been raised in the Bible Belt here in the south I've never found any lack
of religions, churches and believers, yet not a single one has ever been able to
answer the above with anything more than the all too simplistic statements
"You have to have faith in your belief" closely followed by "God
gave you choice, so the path you choose is your own.". Both statements
stand in stark contrast to the obviousness that this same creator endowed me
with the tools to question and reject belief in all things improvable through
logic and fact, yet from these gifts I will achieve an endless damnation in
eternity? Gee thanks for your gracious gifts Mr. God!
If ever there was a case for a circuitous conversation this seems like a shining
example.
In the many discussions I've had believers always tend to point to the lack of
sciences' ability to prove or disprove god and that this convolutedly (<-
spell check says I just coined a new word, Yipee!) somehow proves god must then
be real. These same believers will similarly point to The Big Bang and
Evolution as improbable and illogical, all the while conveniently omitting the
last word of both of these scientific professions, which is the all important
word Theory. See, science, unlike religion never lays absolute claim to
anything unless it is indeed provable, so until such proof exists, all
scientific professions carry the word THEORY. If theists were to similarly add
this same term to the end of their professions instead of the unsupportable
claim that instead it is in fact, "the truth", it would damned sure
garner more respect from objective thinkers, or at least from this one.
Here's the bottom line of how I see myself in the world. I'm not here to
worship anyone or anything that is at its core improvable, nor am I here to
attempt to convert those who do believe in whatever deity they choose to
embrace. What I will always attempt to do is seek truth (a decidedly elusive
target, but ... ) and through that pursuit challenge others to at least question
the unknowable that most of them have always accepted blindly to be THE ABSOLUTE
TRUTH, though quite honestly is itself not only actually improvable, but on many
levels improbable.
With religion overall as much more a detractor and divider of humanity, my view
is, it's singlehandedly done more to constrain mans evolution while encouraging
vilification of huge segments of the earths population against each other,
which only generates hatred, not love for one another, and can hardly be
realistically viewed as in any way a force for the betterment of humanity on the
whole.
With countless wars and untold billions of victims all laid directly at the feet
of religious differences and beliefs, were I able to get even one person to
inspect their blind embracement of such foolishness with objective
reasonableness instead, and at least admit that if they choose to profess
religious belief that they do so in stark opposition to anything verifiable as
"the truth" they so loudly and proudly lay claim to holding and admit
to themselves and others that their beliefs instead are simply subjective views
based upon illogical and improbable texts, written by men, not gods, which exist
solely by faith placed upon these same implausible constructs.
All in all, if I can get anyone to actually just stop and use the brains they
claim their gods gave them to at least THINK for themselves, then success has
occured
quasi Report This Comment Date: April 02, 2011 04:57PM
That's it, I'm starting a new churh, The Church of Jesus Christ and the Latter
Day Theorists.
Mrkim Report This Comment Date: April 02, 2011 05:48PM
If the religious "masters" indeed simply added Theorists to their
claims, I'd have a lot more respect for their position. It's when they
ceremoniously claim it as Truth, The Way or the Path To Enlightenment that gets
me goin.
It would seem to me that placing belief in some everlasting salvation for
eternity through embracement of an improvable religious construct is nearer
madness or lunacy than simply asking why such embracement would seem logical
without some form of verifiable proof. However, these are titles commonly
conferred upon non-believers by theists for asking such simple logic based
questions
GAK67 Report This Comment Date: April 02, 2011 07:37PM
Mrkim, you are right that it is a circuitous argument so I am not going to try
and keep the wheel spinning.
The only things I want to say in response to your post are in response to 2 of
the 4 common arguments threads you have come across. Anybody that has used 1 or
4 is simply deluded, wrong and, in my experience, in the minority. The christian
teaching is that none of us can live a completely moral life, ie. we all make
mistakes/wrong decisions, but to say somebody cannot live a mostly moral life
without a belief in god is not postulated. As for science being flawed, I have
never heard anybody say that before, and if I did I would probably start
laughing.
I also want to say that I have come across people that claim evolution as an
absolute truth.
Congrats on the new word
woberto Report This Comment Date: April 03, 2011 07:27AM
Yeah, I'm not reading all that.
jgoins Report This Comment Date: April 03, 2011 11:57AM
I don't have the eloquent words to debate this issue so I won't try. I just
know that I believe and it costs me nothing and makes me comfortable as I near
the end of my trip through life. I would never try to convert any nonbeliever
and desire they not try to convert me. I don't believe in any religion because
they are all false, I only believe the religion of my heart because God lives in
all of us even if we do not acknowledge it.
Mrkim Report This Comment Date: April 03, 2011 03:58PM
Thanks for the congrats GAK. Seems some of the contortions I take the language
through from time to time have interesting results when viewed in the context of
grammar and word structure. I studied our language thoroughly so I could murder
it properly for fun later
Circuitous or otherwise, it seems the question still remains unanswered. Given
Christian theists purportions (<-jeez, score me another one), are atheists
simply some cosmic joke cruelly perpetrated by their god with an assuredly nasty
outcome determined even prior to their births?
To 'berto: Just for shitz and giggles I threw the above post into a word
processor and found it just shy of 2 pages. While instructions for the current
crop of common cell phones or service providers documentation more closely
resemble small books, and though anything I might pen hardly ascribes to such
lofty flights of journalistic integrity or import, the choice to read either is
certainly individualistic.
In penning more thoughts here's another to slip under your cap: The passionate
search for what is truth is long and arduous, requiring purpose, intent and
thought, indeed, complete lifetimes can and have been spent in seeking the
definitive answer regarding a single sentence on one subject or another.
Conversely, sittin in the cheap seats on the sidelines and whining about efforts
required in such searches are actions I'd expect from those much less wise and
literate than I've always thought you to be
And onto JG: I ain't tryin to convert anyone, that's never my point. I only
seek understanding as well as the same for others. My long held position is most
theists swallow the bait and hook of religion far too easily, never even taking
the time to fully inspect the basis of which, much less putting any real thought
behind the very constructs overall validity while still wholeheartedly
proclaiming it as truth. While asking people of faith to actually look beneath
the surface of their beliefs and see if there's anything truly provable to be
found there is akin to draggin a mule up a ladder, I still feel the arduous
nature of such a quest is worthwhile.
There's a helluva lot more bullshit in the world than there is truth. More
truth is always a welcome thing. BS? I'll pass .... thanks, but we have plenty
enough to go around already
woberto Report This Comment Date: April 03, 2011 10:38PM
Where is Lexx these days?
jgoins Report This Comment Date: April 04, 2011 10:38AM
In my book religion and belief in God are 2 different things. I believe in God
but do not believe in religion at all. The Bible I believe is a guideline to
live a good life and should not be taken as the direct word of God because when
it is read everyone will get different meanings form the passages. religion
takes the Bible and interprets it in their own way to suit their own purposes
which is why I do not follow any religion. I do not want anyone to tell me what
I should bring from reading the Bible. To me God is everywhere and in
everything so I worship in the Church of Life.
BlahX3 Report This Comment Date: April 04, 2011 11:25AM
People have believed in God long before the Bible existed. Besides that, who
are a bunch of ancient theocrats to tell me what to think?
jgoins Report This Comment Date: April 05, 2011 11:50AM
To my way of thinking nobody has the right to tell me what to think or to
believe. Also when I read the Bible nobody has the right to tell me what the
verse means either, it means what I derive from it.
BlahX3 Report This Comment Date: April 06, 2011 02:26AM
I agree with that. I feel free to disagree with someone else's interpretations
of the Bible, I just do it in my mind for the most part as I respect the
freedoms of others too.
fossil_digger Report This Comment Date: April 06, 2011 03:22AM
where's a PW comment when ya need one?
jgoins Report This Comment Date: April 06, 2011 10:30AM
I disagree with them by not attending any church. I also know without a doubt
that entering the Pearly Gates does not require church.
