Mrkim Report This Comment Date: December 03, 2008 03:58PM
"and the circle, it goes round and round ..."
Lexx Report This Comment Date: December 03, 2008 08:30PM
God is as real to you as you want him to be basically.
God will never give you absolute proof otherwise there would be no need for
faith.
I would rather believe in God and find out later that I was wrong than...
Not believe in a god and find out on judgement day "oh shit I was wrong
there really is a God! I am so screwed now and it's too late!"
Mrkim Report This Comment Date: December 03, 2008 09:19PM
I've heard that view over and over Lexx and the logic of such a position just
totally evades me. But, here's a question that sure comes to mind in that
discussion.
Ok, so if you're gonna place faith in something that is admittedly unproveable
with only "faith" as your defining element, right? Well fine, but
here's the question : If you're going to go on faith alone which one are ya
gonna choose, and for what reason? I mean every religon "claims" to
the be the one and only truth and path to elightenment so which one do you
absolutely know is the right choice, and by what criteria did you arrive at that
choice?
Seems to me that since each religon basically poo-poohs every other faith, some
more vehemently than others, which one is gonna absolutely be the right choice,
since pickin the wrong horse in this race puts you in the same basket I'm in
spiritually, dudn it
zxz555 Report This Comment Date: December 03, 2008 09:19PM
but, Lexx, with no belief in Goddy-woddy there is no chancy-wancy of a
Judgy-wudgy-ment Day. I'm using baby talk so you will understand.
fossil_digger Report This Comment Date: December 03, 2008 10:34PM
my sister does that judgy wudgy shit when she gets mad....cracks me up
i should add that she's a gods lamb
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2008 10:35PM by fossil_digger.
Lexx Report This Comment Date: December 04, 2008 03:39AM
That's the thing though, it is SO not faith alone. I really don't think hardly
anyone really understands what true faith is. If you read the Bible it's one of
the things that frustrated Jesus the most.
My beliefs are hardly based on what I have been taught and what I have read. I
have had life changing personal experiences and even though I can not say I have
ever seen God, I am sure beyond the shadow of a doubt I have met him and I know
him personally.
It is something I could never explain to someone that hasn't also experienced
the same thing and even though I may be Christian I am usually never this
preachy.
If fact I will say believe whatever you want, I could really care less; but just
think about this. If you are right, there is no god and we all just rot when we
die I have nothing at all to lose for having believed in one and been wrong.
However if I just happen to be right, and God exists the way the Bible says he
does, the ones who refused to believe are totally screwed when they die.
*edit* But if you are naive enough to think that is the only reason I believe
then you missed the whole point of what I said and why I said it.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/12/2008 03:41AM by Lexx.
Mrkim Report This Comment Date: December 04, 2008 05:27AM
I'm curious though Lexx, if you know him personally, which one is it ....
Krishna, Mohammed, Budda, or whom exactly, and ... before you answer, ask
yourself one more question .... how can you be certain.
Yakno, I was discussing another religious concept recently with my youngest
daughter who's 19 and perhaps you can shed some light on my quandry.
I do follow the path of the righteous man in my life, probably at least as much
if not more so than many "people of faith" I've known, so here's a
boggle I can't quite get past. If I choose and continue to pursue such a path,
die and then am judged for my actions, doesn't gods actions take on an air of
over-righteous indignation if having led a good life, I am still damned for
eternity because I chose not accept belief in him, especially knowing he had
empowered me to have the intellect to explore the concept of him, only to find
no proof existed and so chose not to believe? Have you ever wondered, as have
I, how vain it sounds for anyone to demand worship of them? How totally
illogical and nonsensical it sounds that an all knowing, all seeing and all
powerful entity would ever require such actions by their creation. Sorry dude,
just can not reason some of this nonsense away, no matter how hard I've tried
... and yep, I have tried
Lexx Report This Comment Date: December 04, 2008 06:06AM
God has chosen the foolish things of this world to confound the wise.
Reason all you want but you will never, even if you had a trillion years
understand a being that is infinite, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent. ect.
You sir are merely one of his creatons, so as smart or logical as you might
think you are and try all you want I doubt any answer I could give would be
accepted by you. I doubt anything I could possibly say or do would ever change
your mind so I am not trying, don't ask me, I am not God, I just know
him.....know that I know that I know in a way I couldn't possible help you
understand unless you also met him in the way I did and so many others have.
All I get is for you to read, if you ever read a bible the ending part of the
book of Job where God talks to him and basically tells Job what I would tell
you.
Mrkim Report This Comment Date: December 04, 2008 06:34AM
Foolish things? Like reason, logic and science, those foolish things, hmmm ....
ok.
My questions above yet remain, and still without answer, why so Lexx
Conversion isn't likely for either of us I'm sure, but reasonable discussion and
debate can still be workable for espousing and comparing philosophies, doncha
think
Lexx Report This Comment Date: December 04, 2008 11:13PM
I they were answered, if you had read the book of Job you would have found
them.
My answer was there you are just too blinded by your "superior logic and
intellect" to see it.
Don't expect me to try and explain God to you when no human mind or even the
angels in Heaven are even capable of understanding a being that is so much
higher and beyond us. But for me there is no "need" to be worshiped,
God doesn't need anyone or anything because he IS everything.
Lucifer rebelled and became Satan. His job was to worship, for some reason I
can't explain to you God requires or desires it and it's why we were created.
The meaning of life if you want.
When Lucifer became Satan he was one of the 3 Arch Angels. Gabriel with all his
messengers, Micheal with all his warriors and Lucifer with all his worshippers.
That is why 1/3 of the angels fell along with Lucifer when he became Satan, they
were under his command and their sole purpose was to worship. Lucifer was
created to worship but one day he said "who is this God that I should
worship him, I will take his place" and he rebelled and got his arse
kicked.
That left a void with no worshipers left so God created us and gave us the
chance to get ot know him and to CHOOSE to worship him. We don't have to do it
but if we do we get rewarded and if we don't we get punished. It really is that
simple. It may not seem fair or even make sense but I believe that is how things
are. That is what the Bible tells us anyways and I do believe it to be God's
written word.
We have free will and were even created a little higher than the angels. It is
our choice to reject or accept the sacrifice of God's son and our choice to
worship or not. I can't tell you why God needs or wants to be worshipped I just
know that he does, I accept that, and I worship him. I do it because I want to
so I can thank him for all he has done for me. I plan on doing it forever.
I expect you to pick that apart, chew it up and spit it back at me, but you
swine just had some pearls cast at you.
zxz555 Report This Comment Date: December 05, 2008 11:33AM
science
Mrkim Report This Comment Date: December 05, 2008 03:14PM
Hey Lexx, since I'm quite capable of stating my views and utilizing language to
do so, rest assured it will never be necessary to attempt to put words onto a
page for me. I never made any mention of feeling as if I had "superior
intellect", nor would I. What I did say was that if there were a god he
would have inbued me with the intellect and reasoning abilities I posess, and
that having done so, led me to find no evidence of his/hers existence.
Seems a good brush up on your reading and comprehension skills might be in
order. What I asked of you was all relevent to a personal position, not a
Christian theological schedule of events.
BTW, your condescenion and lack of temperance to others ideas in the theological
realm and then the finalization of your last post by calling us
"swine" is a common reaction I get from most "people of
faith" when directly confronted with questions they have no ability to
reasonably answer logically.
I honestly was interested in an intellectual discussion on this topic.
Propogation of ideologies, discussion and debate all break totally down once
name calling is implemented by any party to it, and .... in debate, this means
the one utilizing such tactics just ceeded their point and position in having
taken the discussion to that level
Lexx Report This Comment Date: December 05, 2008 10:22PM
You can take it as an insult if you want but I was just quoting more scripture,
something you don't seem so knowledgable of.
"Do no cast your pearls before swine, or they will be rejected trampled
under their feet." (paraphrased). I wasn't calling you a pig by that I was
just sharing the word, (albiet in a harsh condescending manner) and if you
expect a Christian to reason with you logically and not resort to quoting
scriptures you don't know Christians very well. Any man of God will lead you
straight to God's word for all the answers are in there if you are open to see
them and have the Holy Spirit (or a man of God) to interpret for you and help
you understand.
I only used swine because I KNEW you would not accept the pearls of wisdom I was
sharing, and to be quite honest the Bible told me not to do it and I did it
anyways.
Mrkim Report This Comment Date: December 05, 2008 11:10PM
Alas Lexx, therein lies the problem, or at least one of them.
You see, quoting scripture from a book any non-christian (either another
athiest, or a member of any religon outside Christianity) takes as nothing but
fiction in the 1st place has the same logic and impact as quoting from Dr Seuss.
With that in mind, your "pearls of wisdom" have the same believability
as would lines from "Green Eggs and Ham".
For this reason, and others, I asked questions of you directly related to YOUR
faith, why you believe, how you are sure of whom it is you think you believe in
etc., but these yet remain unanswered. What I did recieve is a biblical flow
chart, some christian histrionics, all topped off with condescension and then
name calling.
Psychologists typically regard re-direction or unwillingness to give direct
responses to direct questions as a sign of confusion in how to answer properly
or attempts to just flat out refuse to answer a question, and instead to
re-focus the conversation elsewhere, a tactic employed by many political types
when asked a question they purely don't want to answer.
Your contempt and condescension seem decidely un-christian since my
understanding of christian is that it means Christ-like. This of course lands
you squarely in the company of most every christian I ever met. Though there
have been exceptions, most all are great at talkin the talk, but seriously fail
at walkin the walk
Lexx Report This Comment Date: December 06, 2008 04:37PM
My whole entire point is you want me to reason with you and explain God to you.
I am telling you that I can't do that because not only do I not fully
understand God myself, NO ONE is even capable of understanding God. It's so
impossible that God is the only one that can understand himself if that makes
any sense to you.
Accuse me of not walking the walk and being mean and not "Christ
like". You do NOT know me or my motivations. You do NOT seem to know your
Bible or how God and Christians really are supposed to behave, only how you
think they are supposed to behave and you refuse to study it with me and dimiss
it outright as a book of myths.
Read how Jesus when he went into the temple, shouted and verbally abused the
people selling things and exploiting a Holy place to make money. How Jesus
turned over their tables, released their birds and very nearly (he may have for
all we know) beat them up and kicked their asses for it.
Read the end of the book of Job where God got so sick of Job questioning him
that God came down in a pillar of smoke and fire, with the 2 of largest meanest
and most terrifying dinosaurs (Behemoth and Leviathan) he ever created one on
each side and God said to Job what God would have me tell you. It is not mean
spirited, it is not in anger, and it is not meant to be harsh and cut you down
but I don't see you recieving it any other way.
Who are you to question God? Were you there when he created the Heavens and the
Earth? Were you there when God walked with Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden?
Were you there when God cast Satan out of Heaven and created Hell? Were you
there when Adam and Eve were banished from Eden and it was guarding by a huge
Angel carrying a flaming sword to make sure they never got back in?
There is a difference between anger and righteous indignation. There is a
difference between cutting someone down and being condescending and simply
putting them in their place. Judge me if you want to but be thankful I am not
the one who gets to judge you!
So to get back on the topic of the picture at hand, before I get flamed even
more. No you cannot read the mind of God, we aren't capable of even comming
close to understanding God completely. But he does love us and we can create a
deeply spiritual close personal relationship with God through accepting his Son.
I don't hate you Mr. Kim, but I don't really like you much right now either. Not
liking some of what you say doesn't keep me from loving you though. Loving you
enough to warn you and make an attempt (no matter how futile) to try and save
you from eternal seperation from God. A fate so horrendous no one should have to
endure it!
zxz555 Report This Comment Date: December 06, 2008 05:32PM
Lexx, which bible are you reading? King James version, written after many of
Shakespeare's plays? Sorry but Zeus and the Greeks make more sense than your
books that are poorly
(or cleverly, depending on
your taste for propaganda and control) translated renderings into English
from older languages.
This is a major problem with Xtianity, so few people read the originals, and so
few originals exist that the books cannot be trusted. It's like watching
Romeo &
Juliet and claiming to have read the
first folio. On top of which I have sat in a room with two academics,
bible experts who could read the latin and other languages, and listened while
they argued about this and that. If the professors (English system, not
American, so they had studied 10+ years) are unable to agree on interpretation
of now dead languages then the King James and all of the contemporary (sic)
versions are as good as useless. At least historically, and in the sense that
they can be taken as gospel. The bible is the biggest con job the world has ever
seen. It is as valid as if I had written it myself. And if you do use the King
James, you might want to take a close, critical look at who King James I of
England was and what his political (
not religious) motivation was and who
he employed to create his new, definitely not Catholic, story book.
I might as well tell you now that I am 100% with MrKim on this one, save you
bother of trying to convince me there is a heaven, a hell or a god.
Embrace the universe and all there is in it, no god, no fear of retribution,
just wonder and the love you, Lexx, fail to understand when you talk of it.
Mrkim Report This Comment Date: December 07, 2008 05:01PM
My whole entire point is you want me to reason with
you and explain God to you.
Not at all Lexx. What I asked was which god you have a relationship with, how
you are sure of the one you believe it to be and what makes you certain of that
choice as the absolute right one in the face of all other religons?
I am telling you that I can't do that because not
only do I not fully understand God myself, NO ONE is even capable of
understanding God. It's so impossible that God is the only one that can
understand himself if that makes any sense to you.
I'm not too sure of the validity of the above statements Lexx. I mean, you can
turn on the idiot box this mornin and find lots of folks claiming to have a
complete understanding of the concept of "god" and I doubt from our
conversations that you are of a lesser intellectual capacity than those cats.
The biggest difference that comes to mind between you and them is that you
haven't asked me for any $$$$.
The whole "no one can understand god" deal is so smoke and mirrorish
it isn't even humorous. But, it certainly serves religious pundits well in
trying to convince folks of that and then telling them they must have
"faith" since it's all so above their capabilities and then BTW ....
put some $$ in the tray so we can continue our work "spreading the
faith".
Accuse me of not walking the walk and being mean and
not "Christ like". You do NOT know me or my motivations. You do NOT
seem to know your Bible or how God and Christians really are supposed to behave,
only how you think they are supposed to behave and you refuse to study it with
me and dimiss it outright as a book of myths.
Read how Jesus when he went into the temple, shouted
and verbally abused the people selling things and exploiting a Holy place to
make money. How Jesus turned over their tables, released their birds and very
nearly (he may have for all we know) beat them up and kicked their asses for
it.
Nope, I don't know you or your motivations, that's what this whole thing has
been about, attempting to do so, which you've yet to have really shared much of
importance, just spouted scripture and given me biblical tales to attempt to
prove some point that would be best served by just simply speaking from your
head instead of all this mumbo-jumbo.
Yakno Lexx, this Jesus dude you speak of must have had some serious impact
socially and historically with all the miracles he performed in his life time,
then raising all the hub-bub when he was cricified and most assuredly the rising
from the grave and ascending into heaven part of his act, so how about finding
me an account of this cat ever having even lived at all. I mean, historians
throughout time have recorded mentions of important people and events in efforts
to make records of such things for future generations so see what you can come
up with historically that will lend creedence to your contention that he lived
in that time at all.
Read the end of the book of Job where God got so
sick of Job questioning him that God came down in a pillar of smoke and fire,
with the 2 of largest meanest and most terrifying dinosaurs (Behemoth and
Leviathan) he ever created one on each side and God said to Job what God would
have me tell you. It is not mean spirited, it is not in anger, and it is not
meant to be harsh and cut you down but I don't see you recieving it any other
way.
Dinosaurs? Nah man, you're really gettin all fouled up here now dude,
Christians don't believe in dinosaurs. I mean their bones were only placed here
to tempt our faith yakno, I mean so I've heard and read from several Christian
accounts of such things anyway, even directly in the face of scientific
documentation far to the contrary that only serves to make these people out to
be absolute lunatics if observed from the context of a logical scientific
mindset.
Who are you to question God? Were you there when he
created the Heavens and the Earth? Were you there when God walked with Adam and
Eve in the garden of Eden? Were you there when God cast Satan out of Heaven and
created Hell? Were you there when Adam and Eve were banished from Eden and it
was guarding by a huge Angel carrying a flaming sword to make sure they never
got back in?
Who am I to question god you ask? The simple answer is "just me".
The more complicated discussion is a free thinking human taught early on in life
to accept nothing and question all things and seek reasonable and logical
answers devoid of emotional blatherings and BS, that's who.
BTW, unless you're really, really old, I mean older than is possible by we
humans from we we know today, I can't see that you were in heaven or the garden
you speak of either, so what's your point in having simply regurgitated more of
the scriptures in attempting to prove a point that's totally improvable in this
way?
There is a difference between anger and righteous
indignation. There is a difference between cutting someone down and being
condescending and simply putting them in their place. Judge me if you want to
but be thankful I am not the one who gets to judge you!
There is a difference between anger and
self
righteous indignation. There is a difference between cutting someone down and
being condescending and simply putting them in the place
I feel they belong. <- I think I'll go along with the
changes I made to your statements, though not exactly with what you stated.
BTW, I'm not judging you at all, and yes I am indeed thankful you are not
judging me, you hard line Christians scare the shit outta me!
So to get back on the topic of the picture at hand,
before I get flamed even more. No you cannot read the mind of God, we aren't
capable of even comming close to understanding God completely. But he does love
us and we can create a deeply spiritual close personal relationship with God
through accepting his Son.
Sheesh man, this smoke and mirrors stuff really has a solid hold on you dudn it?
And wait, we can have a close personal relationship, but we gotta accept his son
as part of the deal too? Now you sound like you're quoting from a singles site
profile. Aw man, this is seriously goin down hill now.
I don't hate you Mr. Kim, but I don't really like
you much right now either. Not liking some of what you say doesn't keep me from
loving you though. Loving you enough to warn you and make an attempt (no matter
how futile) to try and save you from eternal seperation from God. A fate so
horrendous no one should have to endure it!
Not hating me is good, I mean, hell, I don't hate you either. One big
difference between us though is that your comments don't even have any impact on
whether I like you or not, they are totally irrelevant in that capacity to me. I
have lots of religous friends. Their spiritual leanings have no bearing in my
mind in regards to their friendship, and just because I'm not in their club or
go to their meetings with 'em, they still hold to be MY friends, so ...
All in all Lexx, I'll play my hand and take my chances on this whole eternal
damnation/horrendous fate deal for my lack of acceptance of anything that can't
be logically proven and instead states you must put reason, logic and science
aside and just have faith instead.
"Faith" was problee about the best album George Michael ever made,
"Father Figure"'s my fave from that one, but putting faith in some
imaginary father figure is just waaay too much to ask of me buddy
pro_junior Report This Comment Date: December 07, 2008 11:32PM
cheese and rice...
ORLANDO399 Report This Comment Date: December 08, 2008 06:36AM
nah..chicken and rice
Mrkim Report This Comment Date: December 08, 2008 02:39PM
If we're sittin down to eat I'll take a nice thick porterhouse, baked potato
and some brussel sprouts thanks
