destructor Report This Comment
Date: September 25, 2005 06:26PM

Most of this is bullshit.

At least you agree with the Iraq invasion, unlike Kuwait, the coalition forces will implement a democracy instead of returning another despotism to the throne.

"WORLD WAR II/1941-45/Naval,troops, bombing, nuclear/Hawaii bombed, fought Japan, Italy and Germany for 4 years; 1st nuclear war."

I also agree that this was a mistake. We should have only fought Japan and fought the Soviets aswell.


Hmm, we share some opinions which the majority do not. Do you belong to any political groups in particular?

aDCBeast Report This Comment
Date: September 25, 2005 07:17PM


destructor

Most of this is real. The WWs were needed however most of the smaller covert actions led to more trouble than they were worth.

That is what happens when military brass attempts to think rather than just follow orders.

John_Stone Report This Comment
Date: September 25, 2005 07:19PM

9/11 was provocation, not self-defense. And the US fell for it.

As Condi Rice sez: "US foreign policy is about defending US interests." That's basically it.

It's not about democracy, it's about corporate expansion into new markets. The ME is largely nationalized economies. US Corporations don't like that and wanted in. The US also wanted to control the oil flows, and positioning ourselves in Iraq, kicking out the puppet-who-turned-on-us (Saddam), was the way to do it.

Remember, Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Not a thing. The hijackers were largely Saudi, and trained by Al Qaeda. Bin Laden did not like Saddam because Iraq was secular. Not Islamic.

At the moment, US forces are effectively backing a government who is creating a "constitution" that ignores two large factions of the country, and pushes heavily towards an Islamic state. So we are effectivley fighting to create an Islamic authoritarian governement (Shiite).

If we did actually "implement" democracy (how does one do that again with bombs and stuff?), the Iraqis would vote us out of the country in a New York minute. Already a majority want US out of there. Besides, our presence is only fueling jihadi resistance from all quarters.

Democracy? My ass.

destructor Report This Comment
Date: September 25, 2005 08:02PM

"GERMANY/l948/Nuclear threat/Atomic-capable bombers guard Berlin Airlift"

"CUBA/l962/Nuclear threat, naval/Blockade during missile crisis; near-war with Soviet Union."

"LIBERIA/1990-?/Troops/Foreigners evacuated during civil war; troops protect CIA communications/listening post."

Sorry, just flicking through the mountains of these incidents, I don't see any crimes. Only hyperbole. If the US was really a totalitarianism, centrla and south America would be completely occupied by despots by now. Nations such as Venezuela and Cuba have appalling human rights records and the majority of their population lives in poverty, whereas heavily americanised nations such as Mexico are the most developped in central and south america, yet completely independant and harbour anti-american governments without much espionage related resistance from the US.

In order to be more correct in the future, I suggest you check your facts before jumping to conclusions.

John_Stone Report This Comment
Date: September 25, 2005 08:22PM

And the US has the highest per capita prison population in the world. Worse that Stalinist Soviet Union... Care to comment on that?

The US has supported or placed despots the world over: Pinochet, Saddam, Noriega.. just to name three. Let's not forget the US-sponsored terrorist wars in Nicaragua, El Salvador, Honduras. As for Venezuela, oddly Chavez has apparently received massive support from the poor because he is nationalizing the oil supply, and helping the poor out. The poor have formed "Bolivarian Circles" to educate one another politically, and they turn out in droves to vote now. When Chavez was kidnapped, it was largely due to the massive populist demonstrations that managed to reinstate him.

I believe neither the original poster, nor any subsequent commenter are saying that the US is a "totalitarian" gov't. It does, however, favor corporate interests over the interests of the public need. Which, according to the dictionary definition, is appallingly close to fascism.

If we let market forces rule our country, which we are well on the way to doing, we will be full of poverty too.

Now look, some will say "Oh I'm tired of hearing people rag on the US". Ok fine, then don't listen. But America was founded on the right to dissent. Dissent is about pointing out the problems and organizing to fix them.

There are many good things about the US: a largely well-off population, lots of food to go around, material wealth, running water, comfort, ability to yell and scream about bad things going on w/o getting a bullet to the head. Even the poor aren't as bad off as in some other nations I can mention.

But we are on Plus613. We are not seriously able to organize against the bad things. So we comment, and point out good and bad things.

America is far from perfect. We have lots and lots of power. Mostly military and economic power. Now power, as we know, corrupts. And guess what, our government is getting kinda stinky. We do not export good-will around the world very much, at least not compared to the amount of machiavellian tinkering we do in other nations' affairs.

We don't have to wave the flag and say, 'fuck you, america is great.' And we don't have to sit back and wag our fingers. But let's be realistic.

Most of South America lives in poverty. Hell, most of the rest of the world lives in poverty. 2/3rds of the human population don't have running water. It is not america's fault, these things. However, America has done some very, very bad things.

Why don't we list the good, and work to fix the bad? We can do that together, can we not?

jgoins Report This Comment
Date: September 25, 2005 09:32PM

"And the US has the highest per capita prison population in the world. Worse that Stalinist Soviet Union... Care to comment on that?"

Maybe because we don't kill criminals like most other countries. Maybe we should start, kill someone you die, steal you lose a hand, commit rape you lose something else. How happy do you thing we Americans would be under that kind of rule? If you don't like it here cast your vote the way you want it otherwise leave the country.

aDCBeast Report This Comment
Date: September 25, 2005 11:17PM


jgoins

The US doesn't kill it's criminals ?

Most 1rst world nations don't kill their criminals either yet we lead the way with the number of people convicted of a jailable offense.

Makes me think that putting people behind bars is a business and has nothing to do with whether a crime was committed.

Anonymous Report This Comment
Date: September 25, 2005 11:18PM

considering the cost of this war in iraq and the potential savings we might see in oil - I doubt this war was over oil

Anonymous Report This Comment
Date: September 26, 2005 12:41AM

It isn't the job of the US to bring democracy to anybody. We don't even have democracy ourselves- how could we possibly impose it. Incidentially IMPOSING DEMOCRACY IS LIKE FUCKING FOR VIRGINITY. Isn't possible. Democracy is by definition chosen. If the US government continues to act as if we have the right to order world events, the world will continue to TEACH us otherwise. Bottom line, 911 was a lesson. Pray that our stupid ass military dictatorship gets it! After all, aren't business interests in the US mainly military. Only half of the evil emipre fell, remember, Rome had an eastern and western half. The eastern (soviet half) fell, and the western half (ameriKKKa) has lingered on, best on all sides by enimies. And oh how the Romans do suffer.

John_Stone Report This Comment
Date: September 26, 2005 01:30AM


155106: You are right. It's not about delivering cheap oil to American consumers (we're not citizens anymore, you know). It's a geostrategic move.

Saddam had stabilized an otherwise fractous Iraq by keeping the Shiite and Kurd groups under control. This is not the sort of "stabilization" a peaceful person like you or me would want, of course, but there was no civil war like there is now. The Kurds are trying to control the northern oil fields (using ethnic cleansing and eviction to get rid of non-Kurds), and the Shiites control the south, while the minority Sunnis (Saddam's tribe), get shit out of luck with nothing.

Saddam had given us the finger, and we ruined his
country (1991, and the 12 years of bombing that followed), and finally "ousted" him in 2003. Yes, he was a tyrant and a horrible person. But he was the US's horrible person until he gave us the finger. We used Kuwait as a pretext to fuck him up.

Additionally, the US gets to put their hands on the oil spigots and interefere with.. guess who.. China and it's increasing industrialization.

China is making huge Natural Gas and oil deals with... Iran. We keep threatening Iran with bogus claims that they are building nukes. In fact, we are trying to hold Iran to higher standards that the IAEA has for anyone else, in order to make them look like bad guys, and give US justification to invade, or send in spies, or mercenaries, or something, I'm not sure what. If we can control Iran, then we have a handle to manipulate China with.

Don't forget that China and the US are at odds over... Taiwan, and both are scared it will come to blows. (Oh dear god, don't let us go to war with China...) What does Taiwan do for us? Build cheap semiconducters, memory chips, and Dell computers, among many other digital things. If China takes Taiwan, our computer industry begins to fluctuate in a bad way.

Its all very messy, of course.

Additionally, by invading Iraq we get to take their nationalized markets and open them to international (ie. American) corporate acquisition. Most of the middle east has a nationalized economy where the gov't owns the resources, and controls the money from them. Iraq is the 'free market' beachhead in the M.E.

The US sent none other that M. Peter McPherson to Iraq to rewrite the economic code into US style 'free market' rules, where our companies can come in, buy the resources at fire-sale prices, and use the 50% unemployment in Iraq for cheap labor, and make a pretty little windfall. The only problem so far is the resistance and now civil war making profits a little dull.

There's more, but I won't bore you any further.

27225 is right about the democracy thing.. it's just a PR ruse to keep the Uh-mer-i-can public supporting the war effort.

John_Stone Report This Comment
Date: September 26, 2005 01:31AM

Oh shit, I wrote too much. No one'll read that....Sorry folks.

Anonymous Report This Comment
Date: September 26, 2005 03:37AM

No true American gives a shit why they want to kill us, the fact is they did.. 3000 in the WTC and I hope we burn everyone of those Bastards to glass, the sooner the better. In my opinion, if you feel different, get the fuck out of the U.S. and live your life away in your better country..

Anonymous Report This Comment
Date: September 26, 2005 03:41AM

Your RIGHT you wrote too much, and only a few pussie non-american aliens, even listen to, let alone read that bullshit.

CaptJames_Kirk Report This Comment
Date: September 26, 2005 09:40PM

I love the U.S.ofA.

Anonymous Report This Comment
Date: September 26, 2005 09:40PM

I dunno. Seems like a fairly intelligent discussion going on here; that is until you red, white, and blue flag waving morons showed up and pronounced death on all of AmeriKKKa's enemies. The reason they hate us, under- and mis-educated AmeriKKan moron, is because for every one of the 3000 of our citizens killed on 911, your fascist government has murdered thousands of their people. They retaliate for a reason, and yes, you talk big and bad now, but when they show up at your kids school and murder them all (like your government has done), then lets see how big and bad you are. Stop your nationalistic ranting for a minute and think, could "they" have a legitimate grip against your government. If you look at the bloodthirsty track record of the US, you may honestly conclude yes. We the citizens of the US must stop our government from repeating the same mistakes, victumizing innocent people around the globe, IN ORDER TO SAVE OUR OWN CHILDREN"S LIVES potentially. Now drop the nonscence and act like you have a brain!

Anonymous Report This Comment
Date: September 26, 2005 09:42PM

At least John Stone can form a contraction.
Ever wonder why the US news is saturated with the
story of the spoiled party biatch (white girl)
missing in Aruba? How many Amerikans know where
Aruba is? How many know that Venezuela is the
second largest oil exporter to the U.S.
Like everything else, including "911",
FOLLOW THE MONEY!
Who has profited
Who pays
Who suffers

Anonymous Report This Comment
Date: September 26, 2005 09:52PM

don't fucking forget the british empire! how many places did they fuck up?

aDCBeast Report This Comment
Date: September 26, 2005 10:59PM


Anonymous@238240

What about the millions that the US has killed in various military actions over the past 130 years ?

Now is the only time the victims of western imperialist agression have been able to mount an attack to defend themselves.

Did you think US brutality would go on without suffering some kind of consequence ? That basically they would get away with murders ?

Anonymous Report This Comment
Date: September 27, 2005 04:16AM

Why did you stop at 130 years? We have been kicking foreigners asses when needed or bailing their asses out of trouble for longer than that. Did you think US suffering would go on without brutality or some kind of consequence ? That basically they would get away with murders ?

Anonymous Report This Comment
Date: September 27, 2005 05:04AM

Oh, right! Like what the British did somehow justifies US agression. FAce it, AmeriKKKans are morons because the US government chooses not to educate its own citizens. Easier to control morons. U-S-A! U-S-A! S-T-U-P-I-D (and proud of it!)

Duane Report This Comment
Date: September 28, 2005 08:58PM

Morons,you cant even spell dumbass,or use capitol letters for that mater!The people of the U.S.A were attacked on 911 not the millitary,so if we choose to revel in the killing of the middle east region,deal with it.We get no sympathy from them,they get no sympathy from us.

Anonymous Report This Comment
Date: September 28, 2005 10:35PM

Surely only the government can use capitol (sic) letters?....and what does mother (mater) have to do with it? Millitary?? People who live in glass houses, Duane, shouldn't throw stones.

John_Stone Report This Comment
Date: September 29, 2005 02:06AM

Who cares about speeeling.. don't distract us.

Yep, the brits were fuckers too. That's no lie.

I think the larger point is that whomever is the most powerful, keeps that power through violence.

The lesson should be: We need to work towards a less violent world. How do we do that?

For one, Americans can work to get their gov't to stop doing stupid ass clandestine violent shit. But really, it's starts in your own house. Right?

Violent thought, violent actions.. you can choose to not do them.

anonymous Report This Comment
Date: September 29, 2005 06:18AM

let us not forget spain, stalin, hitler, etc, etc. do you enjoy your way of life in the usa? it's going to be them or us.

Duane Report This Comment
Date: September 30, 2005 02:32AM

195244 Ive allways wanted an all glass house so you could watch me take a shit and then do what I think of your opinion,flush it.Spell check this,SUCK MY ASS TURDBOY!

John_Stone Report This Comment
Date: September 30, 2005 03:41AM

997, I disagree, it doesn't have to be them or us. It is possible to further the causes of peace in the world. If the USA wasn't so stupid as to use the provocation of 9/11 to attack a wholly unrelated country, and kill countless civilians, inflaming arab sentiment, and causing thousands into the waiting arms of Al Quaeda... we could be making the world a better place.

Don't you see how we are playing straight into their hands? A secretive, non-national group makes a spectacular attack on the most powerful nation on earth, and gets exactly the response they wanted.

The US, in response, launches a massive military occupation of arab lands. This answers the prayers of Bin Laden Fuckhead, and Arabs everywhere flock to the "cause".

So great, we are inflaming war which will continue for the rest of our lives, and into the next generation or two.

IS the USA leaders were SMARTER, we could have used diplomacy and peaceful strategy to defuse this whole situation. It would have taken time, yet, but it would be better than what we have now.

We cannot bomb the world to peace.

The_Doc Report This Comment
Date: October 02, 2005 04:51PM

you guys take the fun out of plus613