GAK, we can play and twist the semantics of wordings all day long while totally avoiding the reality which remains starkly that since no proof of the existence of any god can be provided, all religious belief and worship is 100% faith based.

I personally take no issue with anyones faith and see their right to worship and practice any religion in anyway they so choose to be an absolute right so long as these actions in no way harm others.

What I take HUGE issue with is believers who point to their favorite religious construct as "the truth" when in truth, no proof outside of personal faith can be put forth to prove the reasonability of such a claim. Secondly I take exceptional issue with believers claiming some moral high ground which again they grant themselves through the tenets of their again "faith based" proclamations, and again, without any basis for such a belief being founded upon fact, but instead by purely high minded fiction designed by men, not god.

In my many debates over the years on the topic several common threads fall into place in each of them: 1. Because I'm an atheist, I can not be a moral human as I can hold no basis for morality without a belief in some form of theology 2. I, as the unbeliever, am the one who will suffer for my lack of faith while believers will live on for eternity simply because they believe 3. Creative design can be the only reasonable/plausible answer in how the world around us occurs ... and 4. Since science has yet to have proven or disproven god, it is flawed at its core and should be derided as invalid in any argument regarding religion.

My query is, and yes Wolfie, it is a valid question, whether you choose to view it such or not, and no, the only "proof" you've ever offered previously are the same subjective faith based protestations all believers proudly point to as "THE TRUTH" , never mind the real facts which are it's all based on improvable constructs, which to a rational mind could never elevate such claims to a level of what could be reasonably viewed as truth, since truth is something that's verifiable, not subjective ....

If I were created by an omniscient, all loving and all powerful god who knew my every thought and action before I was even born, while also being endowed by this same creator with the capacity to question all things, including this very same gods existence, which religious texts all say I must not do (a separate and similarly fascinating dichotomy all in itself BTW), without ever offering any truly verifiable proof of his/her existence, then told I must worship this god, rejecting all other claims of god as valid, and that if I fail to worship and follow a life path portrayed by this improvable god as "the way" I'll then be damned for eternity to live out that perpetuity in pain and agony, it totally evades me in how exactly this sounds like actions and demands placed upon his "creations" by an omniscient and all loving god?

If I am indeed the progeny of a god who knows the days and the number of my days before I was ever born, knowing just as well that I would also come to question his existence, which would then lead to an eternity in hell from such doubt, what then would have been the point of my creation and existence? Would I not, under such pretexts, obviously have been created, lived my life and then have been doomed to this horrendous eternity before I was ever born? Again, what would have been the point of my existence if not some horrid joke perpetrated by such a god with an assured tortuous outcome before my life ever even began? If so that sure calls into question the all loving part about such a god!

Having been raised in the Bible Belt here in the south I've never found any lack of religions, churches and believers, yet not a single one has ever been able to answer the above with anything more than the all too simplistic statements "You have to have faith in your belief" closely followed by "God gave you choice, so the path you choose is your own.". Both statements stand in stark contrast to the obviousness that this same creator endowed me with the tools to question and reject belief in all things improvable through logic and fact, yet from these gifts I will achieve an endless damnation in eternity? Gee thanks for your gracious gifts Mr. God!

If ever there was a case for a circuitous conversation this seems like a shining example.

In the many discussions I've had believers always tend to point to the lack of sciences' ability to prove or disprove god and that this convolutedly (<- spell check says I just coined a new word, Yipee!) somehow proves god must then be real. These same believers will similarly point to The Big Bang and Evolution as improbable and illogical, all the while conveniently omitting the last word of both of these scientific professions, which is the all important word Theory. See, science, unlike religion never lays absolute claim to anything unless it is indeed provable, so until such proof exists, all scientific professions carry the word THEORY. If theists were to similarly add this same term to the end of their professions instead of the unsupportable claim that instead it is in fact, "the truth", it would damned sure garner more respect from objective thinkers, or at least from this one.

Here's the bottom line of how I see myself in the world. I'm not here to worship anyone or anything that is at its core improvable, nor am I here to attempt to convert those who do believe in whatever deity they choose to embrace. What I will always attempt to do is seek truth (a decidedly elusive target, but ... ) and through that pursuit challenge others to at least question the unknowable that most of them have always accepted blindly to be THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH, though quite honestly is itself not only actually improvable, but on many levels improbable.

With religion overall as much more a detractor and divider of humanity, my view is, it's singlehandedly done more to constrain mans evolution while encouraging vilification of huge segments of the earths population against each other, which only generates hatred, not love for one another, and can hardly be realistically viewed as in any way a force for the betterment of humanity on the whole.

With countless wars and untold billions of victims all laid directly at the feet of religious differences and beliefs, were I able to get even one person to inspect their blind embracement of such foolishness with objective reasonableness instead, and at least admit that if they choose to profess religious belief that they do so in stark opposition to anything verifiable as "the truth" they so loudly and proudly lay claim to holding and admit to themselves and others that their beliefs instead are simply subjective views based upon illogical and improbable texts, written by men, not gods, which exist solely by faith placed upon these same implausible constructs.

All in all, if I can get anyone to actually just stop and use the brains they claim their gods gave them to at least THINK for themselves, then success has occured